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Message boards : Proth Prime Search : Can PPS-Mega be a Fermat Divisor?

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Profile Jordan Romaidis
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Discovered 4 mega primesEliminated 1 conjecture "k"Discovered 1 AP26Found 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 1 mega prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes Mountain StageFound 1 mega prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes Mountain Stage321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,014,730)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,080,460)ESP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (502,325)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,000,054)PPS LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (95,748,889)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (168,701)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (39,985,666)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (16,535,456)SGS LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,577,642)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (525,711)Woodall LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (15,028,246)321 Sieve Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,084,376)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,606,749)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (23,323,949)AP 26/27 Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (232,452,285)GFN Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (146,257,211)PSA Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (52,891,089)
Message 146713 - Posted: 16 Dec 2020 | 20:55:46 UTC

I know PPSE and PPS can be but is there some upper limit that would not make that possible for PPS-Mega?

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Eliminated 1 conjecture "k"Found 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (229,492)Cullen LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (110,733)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,173,525)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (104,385)SoB LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (106,117)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (139,802)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,325,207)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (626,755)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (122,944)321 Sieve Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (104,900)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,000,599)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (515,556)PPS Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (11,855,975)TRP Sieve (suspended) Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (255,612)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,583,960)GFN Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (23,334,026)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,522,050)
Message 146716 - Posted: 16 Dec 2020 | 21:39:25 UTC - in response to Message 146713.

I know PPSE and PPS can be but is there some upper limit that would not make that possible for PPS-Mega?


https://www.primegrid.com/forum_forum.php?id=121
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Profile Jordan Romaidis
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Discovered 4 mega primesEliminated 1 conjecture "k"Discovered 1 AP26Found 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 1 mega prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes Mountain StageFound 1 mega prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes Mountain Stage321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,014,730)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,080,460)ESP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (502,325)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,000,054)PPS LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (95,748,889)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (168,701)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (39,985,666)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (16,535,456)SGS LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,577,642)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (525,711)Woodall LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (15,028,246)321 Sieve Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,084,376)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,606,749)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (23,323,949)AP 26/27 Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (232,452,285)GFN Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (146,257,211)PSA Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (52,891,089)
Message 146720 - Posted: 16 Dec 2020 | 21:57:21 UTC - in response to Message 146716.

I know PPSE and PPS can be but is there some upper limit that would not make that possible for PPS-Mega?


https://www.primegrid.com/forum_forum.php?id=121


Thank you. I'm aware of the Fermat Divisor Search. :)

However, my question still stands.

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Found 5 primes in the 2021 Tour de PrimesFound 5 mega primes in the 2021 Tour de PrimesThe "Shut up already!" badge:  This loud mouth has mansplained on the forums over 10 thousand times!  Sheesh!!!Discovered the World's First GFN-19 prime!!!Discovered 6 mega primesFound 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes321 LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,822,730)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,624,591)ESP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,021,269)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,145,754)PPS LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (16,008,485)PSP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,197,957)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (34,291,181)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,007,110)SGS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (3,252,256)TRP LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,084,329)Woodall LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,911,985)321 Sieve Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,061,196)Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (4,170,256)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,059,304)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (22,885,121)Sierpinski (ESP/PSP/SoB) Sieve (suspended) Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,035,522)TRP Sieve (suspended) Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,051,121)AP 26/27 Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (10,118,303)GFN Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (76,733,355)PSA Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (12,445,029)
Message 146721 - Posted: 16 Dec 2020 | 22:03:47 UTC - in response to Message 146713.
Last modified: 16 Dec 2020 | 22:05:19 UTC

I know PPSE and PPS can be but is there some upper limit that would not make that possible for PPS-Mega?


Yes, but it's unlikely because of the high K that is currently being searched in PPS-MEGA.

There are two known mega-prime Fermat divisors (I think it's just two), and PrimeGrid found both of them. The most recent one was found on the Fermat Divisor search, but it's still a Proth prime and theoretically could have been found in the PPS or or PPS MEGA projects.

The first one, found in 2014, actually was found on our PPS-MEGA prime search.

https://www.primegrid.com/primes/primes.php?project=MEGA&factors=F&only=ONLY&announcements=ANNOUNCEMENTS&sortby=size&dc=no
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Profile JeppeSNProject donor
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Found 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes321 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (529,293)Cullen LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (611,298)ESP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (139,922)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (35,236)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,594,179)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (212,242)SoB LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (237,390)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (145,419)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (105,212)TRP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (342,501)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (109,455)321 Sieve Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (175,037)PPS Sieve Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (10,113)AP 26/27 Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (12,129)GFN Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,674,106)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,614,290)
Message 146722 - Posted: 16 Dec 2020 | 22:06:45 UTC

Sure they can, and it has happened. Search with https://www.primegrid.com/primes/primes.php?project=MEG&factors=XGF&only=ONLY&sortby=date; on 2014-07-25, you see:

193*2^3329782+1 is a Factor of F3329780!!!! (13086.930000 seconds)


The probability a Proth prime k*2^n + 1 divides a Fermat number, is 1/k. It does not matter if it is a megaprime or not, or if it comes from PPS, PPSE, PPS-MEGA, or PPS-DIV.

In 2014, MEGA worked on candidates with k < 1200. For the time being, MEGA is working on 1200 < k < 10000. So statistically, you need thousands of these primes before you have a Fermat divisor. But you can still be lucky.

The highest chances, you get with 321 and PPS-DIV, because they have low k.

/JeppeSN

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Discovered 4 mega primesEliminated 1 conjecture "k"Discovered 1 AP26Found 1 prime in the 2018 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2019 Tour de PrimesFound 2 primes in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 1 mega prime in the 2020 Tour de PrimesFound 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes Mountain StageFound 1 mega prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes Mountain Stage321 LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,014,730)Cullen LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,080,460)ESP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (502,325)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (6,000,054)PPS LLR Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (95,748,889)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (168,701)SoB LLR Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (39,985,666)SR5 LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (16,535,456)SGS LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (18,577,642)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (525,711)Woodall LLR Jade: Earned 10,000,000 credits (15,028,246)321 Sieve Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,084,376)Generalized Cullen/Woodall Sieve (suspended) Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (20,606,749)PPS Sieve Sapphire: Earned 20,000,000 credits (23,323,949)AP 26/27 Double Silver: Earned 200,000,000 credits (232,452,285)GFN Double Bronze: Earned 100,000,000 credits (146,257,211)PSA Emerald: Earned 50,000,000 credits (52,891,089)
Message 146723 - Posted: 16 Dec 2020 | 22:10:28 UTC

Thank you for the info everyone!

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Found 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes321 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (529,293)Cullen LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (611,298)ESP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (139,922)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (35,236)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,594,179)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (212,242)SoB LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (237,390)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (145,419)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (105,212)TRP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (342,501)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (109,455)321 Sieve Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (175,037)PPS Sieve Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (10,113)AP 26/27 Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (12,129)GFN Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,674,106)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,614,290)
Message 146724 - Posted: 16 Dec 2020 | 22:13:09 UTC - in response to Message 146721.

There are two known mega-prime Fermat divisors (I think it's just two)


I did not see your answer before I wrote mine, so I repeat a lot of what you said.

It is actually three megaprime Fermat divisors now, since Ryan Propper's record this October; see Fermat Divisors Top Twenty.

/JeppeSN

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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (434,563)Cullen LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (82,217)ESP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (16,570)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (12,551)PPS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,123,888)PSP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (26,371)SoB LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (183,524)SR5 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (59,307)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (148,878)TRP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (195,905)Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (19,925)321 Sieve Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,001,667)AP 26/27 Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (72,774)GFN Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (110,081)
Message 146726 - Posted: 16 Dec 2020 | 22:31:02 UTC
Last modified: 16 Dec 2020 | 22:32:17 UTC

Yes. In fact the world record Fermat divisor before DIV was a PPS-Mega: 193*2^3329782+1.

It's less likely now, because PPS-Mega is searching 1200<k<10000 instead of k<1200, but it's still certainly possible. (Rule of thumb: if k*2^n+1 is prime where k is odd, it has a 1/k chance of being a Fermat divisor. There are rare examples of k's that break this rule, meaning they have either a better chance or no chance at all.) For what it's worth, I think DIV, PPS, PPSE, and 321 are currently all better bets.

Edit: oh wow, I'm slow.

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321 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (538,216)Cullen LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,169,946)ESP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (636,842)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (212,232)PPS LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (883,715)PSP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (663,928)SoB LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (217,346)SR5 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (531,229)SGS LLR Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,042,382)TRP LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (561,429)Woodall LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (781,741)321 Sieve Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,107,153)PPS Sieve Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,045,010)AP 26/27 Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,470,273)GFN Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,129,018)PSA Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (244,815)
Message 146750 - Posted: 17 Dec 2020 | 18:19:03 UTC

There are Fermat divisors whose existence seem greatly improbable, yet here they are:

1527888802614951 · 2120 + 1 divides F118
15249465809 · 22591 + 1 divides F2587

There are more with large k: Fermat factors

Or is that 1/k conjectured probability not true for small n?
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321 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (434,563)Cullen LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (82,217)ESP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (16,570)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (12,551)PPS LLR Ruby: Earned 2,000,000 credits (2,123,888)PSP LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (26,371)SoB LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (183,524)SR5 LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (59,307)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (148,878)TRP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (195,905)Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (19,925)321 Sieve Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (5,001,667)AP 26/27 Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (72,774)GFN Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (110,081)
Message 146753 - Posted: 17 Dec 2020 | 18:57:47 UTC - in response to Message 146750.

There are Fermat divisors whose existence seem greatly improbable, yet here they are:

1527888802614951 · 2120 + 1 divides F118
15249465809 · 22591 + 1 divides F2587

There are more with large k: Fermat factors

Or is that 1/k conjectured probability not true for small n?

The 1/k heuristic is fine in these cases; it's just that people have searched many billions of candidates, and a very large number of very small probabilities adds up to a reasonable probability. It's important here that the factors you're referring to are only tens to hundreds of digits long, so they can be tested millions of times faster than megaprimes.

(As an aside, the extremely low-n, high-k end of the FermatSearch spectrum doesn't even search one candidate at a time; they literally expand out the Fermat number and try to factor it with the elliptic curve method. That's how we know some Fermat divisors where k has ~50 digits.)

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Message 146762 - Posted: 17 Dec 2020 | 23:13:31 UTC - in response to Message 146753.

(As an aside, the extremely low-n, high-k end of the FermatSearch spectrum doesn't even search one candidate at a time; they literally expand out the Fermat number and try to factor it with the elliptic curve method. That's how we know some Fermat divisors where k has ~50 digits.)

And we know a Fermat divisor where k has > 500 digits, the largest prime factor of F11. :-)

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Found 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes321 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (529,293)Cullen LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (611,298)ESP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (139,922)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (35,236)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,594,179)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (212,242)SoB LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (237,390)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (145,419)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (105,212)TRP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (342,501)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (109,455)321 Sieve Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (175,037)PPS Sieve Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (10,113)AP 26/27 Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (12,129)GFN Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,674,106)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,614,290)
Message 146782 - Posted: 18 Dec 2020 | 9:20:25 UTC - in response to Message 146762.

Exactly. It is very plausible that the 1/k heuristic will hold.

But you should not think that the factors of Fermat numbers will typically have low k. We can post the factors of F11 just to illustrate:

39*2^13 + 1 119*2^13 + 1 10253207784531279*2^14 + 1 434673084282938711*2^13 + 1 21174615134173285574982784529334689743337627529744150958172243537764108788193250592967656046192485007078101912652776662834559689734635521223667093019353364100169585433799507320937371688159076970887037493581569352118776521064958422163933812649044026502558555356775560067461648993426750049061580191794744396103493131476781686200989377719638682976424873973574085951980316371376859104992795318729984801869785145588809492038969317284320651500418425949345494944448110057412733268967446592534704415768023768439849177511907048426136846561848711377379319145718177075053*2^13 + 1

Only the first two factors (Cunningham 1899) are Proth primes (with 2^n > k).

/JeppeSN

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Found 1 prime in the 2020 Tour de Primes321 LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (529,293)Cullen LLR Gold: Earned 500,000 credits (611,298)ESP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (139,922)Generalized Cullen/Woodall LLR Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (35,236)PPS LLR Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (9,594,179)PSP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (212,242)SoB LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (237,390)SR5 LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (145,419)SGS LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (105,212)TRP LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (342,501)Woodall LLR Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (109,455)321 Sieve Silver: Earned 100,000 credits (175,037)PPS Sieve Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (10,113)AP 26/27 Bronze: Earned 10,000 credits (12,129)GFN Amethyst: Earned 1,000,000 credits (1,674,106)PSA Turquoise: Earned 5,000,000 credits (7,614,290)
Message 146783 - Posted: 18 Dec 2020 | 9:30:28 UTC - in response to Message 146782.

Fermat numbers F6, F7, F8, F10, F13, F14, F17, F20, F22 etc. have no prime factors that are Proth primes. I wonder how often that will happen "in the long run" (asymptotically). /JeppeSN

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Message boards : Proth Prime Search : Can PPS-Mega be a Fermat Divisor?

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